Hollow Earth

Ending the Nonsense

I was contacted by veralun a while ago, reporting that he had taken out the following from my latest post:

‘Also, Doc, you didn’t respond to the problems I had with a small council like you suggest. Unless you ignore the Liaison fiasco, the community reaction to those in power is a fatal flaw in your idea.’

He rationalized this action with the following:

“This has to stop. If you want to have a discussion with DocOlana than do this by PM and not on these forums.
Just do your thing and post what you want, but please stop reacting on every word.
We also did send this to DocOlana to stop his continues reacting on every word you or another writes down.
From now we will take out all those nonsense. I hope we do not have to do that anymore.
Try to discuss constructive. You can do better than this.”

My response was as follows:

“How was that not constructive? I want to know how he plans to deal with that aspect of his idea. It’s far more constructive than it has in the past where he calls people anti-Cyan and I compare him to China. Why did you put your foot down when a serious constructive dialogue was actually happening?”

And veralun’s response:

“You call it a dialogue. We call it an argument. Besides this is a forum and it is not the right place for a dialogue. You can do that on a blog or somewhere else, but we do not allow this kind of “dialogues” on the MOUL forums.
I also made that suggestion to DocOlanA. So feel free to PM eachother to continue your dialogue.”

So, a forum isn’t the place for a dialogue? This is the kind of bullying that is going on. People continue to do this, to silence people, to call them anti-Cyan, to call for people to be thrown out “for the good of all” in the words of CrisGer. Doctor CrisGer. Who has been a part of this community since Prologue. Whose name appears in Uru’s credits, if I am not mistaken. That same person is, intentionally or no, calling for Uru’s death by calling for social or moral cleansing. Let us call it what it is. It is bullying. It is coercion. It is wrong.

But to veralun. Yes, it is a dialogue. Yes, that is the purpose of a forum. It is not nonsense, it is a request for information from someone who has ignored the downsides of his ideology for his own benefit. I understand that moderating the MOUL forum is hard and I understand that a forum argument can be exhausting, but there is no reason to stop this discussion. This discussion is key because, if Cyan is smart, they will have been watching the discussion, looking for ideas on how to properly implement this. Without this discussion, both sides just go back and become more isolated.

And just recently there was a topic about the St. Patrick’s Day Parade. People, including myself, objected to the use of Dhelayan’s server because of Dhelayan’s previous actions (lies and manipulation of other’s emotions). All posts relating to Dhelayan were deleted thus condoning Dhelayan’s activities. When I asked why, my post was deleted and the thread was locked.

This is nonsense that has no place in this community. This sort of nonsense will harm Uru if it is not corrected. This is poor community management at its worst and it must come to an end. Veralun has a duty to this community to step down from his position as moderator (or at the very least return to moderating only the forum in a language he can understand). Also, the moderator who deleted my posts and the posts of others warning the community about an illegal shard operator, liar, and copyright thief should no longer be allowed to moderate the MOUL forums. Their actions are a disgrace to this community and should be called out for it.

It is past time to end the accusations of anti-Cyanism and the minor excuses veralun makes up to bully people with. It is past time for mature people to be in charge of the MOUL forum moderation.


Filed under: Uru Community

30 Responses

  1. Not much more to add, except for “Here, here!”

  2. Paradox says:

    Agreed, the forums have been out of hand for quite a while, but it has been getting worse and worse.

    I’m seeing more and more discussions being “veralun’d”.

  3. well, at some point after the posting of this, the thread has been unlocked.

  4. Anonimous says:

    CrisGer has been around since D’mala. He just tries to suggest otherwise.

  5. In an attempt to correct a possible bit of misinformation before it gets out of hand and fuels more animosity: I’m pretty sure that CrisGer does not appear in any Uru credits (I just checked MOULa, and don’t remember him in ABM/CC either) and has not been in Prologue (but then I haven’t either). I first saw him on MYSTcommunity in 2005.

    Other than that what you write sounds sensible, but I’m refraining from final judgement as I don’t know the whole story. I have never gotten into conflict with Veralun’s (or anyone else’s) moderation myself, but I admit that some moderation decisions have irritated me as well.

    I for one have enjoyed reading that conversation on the MOUL forum, even though I disagree with your tone in some posts – if anything, those would have been candidates for moderation, not the rather civil and relevant bit you quote. In fact, such entertaining dialogues are what keeps me on that forum (besides the fact that it’s where Cyantists post).

    Can I assume that this post has gone in a PM to RAWA too? That would seem to be the usual way of settling disputes about forum moderation to me.

  6. Whilyam says:

    A PM was sent to RAWA the day veralun edited my post. That received no response. I have sent a PM to RAWA and Chogon today. I hope they respond and take this as the serious issue it is.

  7. As for the Uru credits, there’s probably a confusion here between CrisGer/christopherger (Christopher Gerlach) and Dr. Greer / phgreer / linkerjpatrick (J. Patrick Greer).

    Also, to be pedantic for one moment, the expression is “hear, hear” (as in “hey everyone, hear what this person has to say”); “here, here” doesn’t really make sense.

    Finally and to get back on topic, nobody will be surprised, but I certainly agree. Veralun seems to have lost sight of what I believe forum moderation ought to be about: to encourage and foster discussion, not to impede it. His quote that “this is a forum and it is not the right place for a dialogue” has either translated poorly from Dutch, or shows a bizarre, complete misunderstanding of a forum’s purpose.

  8. fi says:

    Welcome to the growing world of veralun’s outcasts Whilyam.

    Not much fun being under veralun’s gun is it?

    And… some of you wondered why some of us do and say some of the things we do.

    Spot on Whilyam. Thank you. (^8

  9. BAD says:

    I would say welcome to the club Whil, but I see you already have had the pin and known the secret handshake for a while now.

    However the club grows bigger everyday it seems.

  10. BAD says:

    Wow, sentence fail.

  11. Andy Valdez says:

    Don’t you just love society today? I’m with ya Whil…

  12. Hoikas says:

    I have always taken issue with the fact that Veralun who seems to be the head moderator of the ENGLISH section of the forum cannot even speak English. Half of the time, his posts about why he locked a thread or deleted posts do not make any grammatical sense, nor is it possible to otherwise interpret his rationale.

    Needless to say, my theory on moderation varies vastly from Veralun’s. I let trolling, bashing, and arguments go on without really even caring. Though usually I’m so involved in the conflict that using a moderation powers would make me seem like an even bigger jackass than I already am.

    Anyway, it looks like business as usual at the MOUL forum.

  13. Tomala says:

    Could not have said it better.

  14. I have had a lot of contact with Veralun during UU through the Dutch Myst Community (I speak Dutch, English, French and a bit of German and Latin) and the reason I left that community was partely because of his behavior.

    The big problem with Veralun is usually that he gets along well with a few powerful people of the forums he likes, and so they think he’s fair and honest, this is why he is a moderator on many different forums.

    His tyrannical behavior has made a huge part of the community angry and his constant post deleting has scared many different community members away from the MOUL forums (including me, because what is there to read if all critique is filtered out).

    And yeah, his English is indeed very poor, which frustrates me a lot. On many occasions I have had the idea that his replies on posts clearly showed that he doesn’t understand what people are talking about.

    The following message should really reach cyan in some way: “make him a normal user again, NOW!!!”

  15. fi says:

    The following message should really reach cyan in some way: “make him a normal user again, NOW!!!”

    I have tried for several years now to no avail. I have pointed out the many miss interpretations & edited & locked & split threads & deleted posts along with the forum rules that might have been connected to the actions taken to Chogon & graydragon. My concerns have all but fallen on deaf ears. I was told that, way back when, Cyan does not have the resources to monitor their moderator’s actions and the moderators are left to interpret & apply the forum rules as they see fit. What I found most interesting in all this, shortly after dialoging with several moderators & Cyan about these concerns there were several of the better moderators that dropped out of moderating. The results have been more miss interpretations & bias moderating with no recourse or PM’s. The one PM I did receive, long ago, from veralun stated that I should already know the forum rules. I responded back that I thought I did know and understand the forum rules but I did not understand his interpretation of them and to please explain. I received no response to my plea for help and my miss understandings.

    I have found once you are ‘labeled’ your posts will be interpreted in the most callous of ways. I can post “Good morning everyone.” and the bias interpretation comes out “Go fuck yourselves.”

    Maybe this time, if enough people speak up on this issue something will come of it.

    On another note, I look forward to Open Source URU and what it will bring. It will be refreshing to get away from all this crap.

  16. D'nial says:

    Wow. I had heard things that led me to believe that Veralun was overprotective of Cyan and somewhat stifling to meaningful conversation, but I never expected him to say anything so… vacuous.

    Is it possible that by “dialogue” he meant “prolonged discussion between only two people”? I have heard that there is a rule on Uru Obsession that prohibits this to some degree. I don’t understand why, though.

  17. Chuckles58 says:

    I agree. Veralun has become a liability on the MOUL forums. Some of the newer moderators do their job quietly and politely. The St Patty’s Day Massacre should be the last straw.

  18. Geert says:

    @ Bert van der Poel
    You can return safely to the Dutch Community. No Veralun involved and speak your mind freely.
    I am rather dissapointed that community management just does not seem to work since MOUL started. I have seen some valuable people leave. (Randomos and Khatie come to mind) A lot of problems could have been avoided if only the appointed community managers by cyanworlds would have had a listening ear. Existing communities were just blown away. I surely hope RAWA will take a lesson from this. (somewhere in the back of my mind says he will ;) )

  19. Erik says:

    Whilyam, do not try to discuss things with Veralun. He just cannot understand things as they are. Once, he misunderstood me and closed a topic of mine. Just as you did, I PM’ed him to politely explain how he had misunderstood me, and then he just threatened me with a ban… That threat just showed his incompetence, but I was powerless.

    It is very bad for the community to have someone in charge who is that bad at communication and understanding and it causes many to leave the official forums. Cyan should not keep covering this with the cloak of charity.

    I’m sure that Veralun’s intentions are fine. So if Veralun reads this, I want him to know that I’m sure he’s doing its best. But if he misses the required capabilities for the job, he’s just doing more harm than good, and I can’t see why he would even like to continue the job.

  20. semplerette says:

    Thank you for your comments, Erik! I doubt Veralun is in listening mode right now. And based on his actions, I can’t see how his intentions were pure. If so, he would make better attempts to contact individuals and discuss how their posts were “wrong” and why they were deleted.

    And you asked why Veralun doesn’t resign his position. Who would want to give up that kind of unchecked “power” over others? Certainly not someone as insecure as Veralun- who knows when he’ll get another opportunity like this?

    I can only hope that Cyan does the right thing and reinstates the Interns and kicks Veralun out. And it wouldn’t surprise if me Cyan doesn’t have the backbone for such decisive action. Only time will tell!

    Best wishes on your journey through life, Erik!

  21. vmorris says:

    I have english, german, spanish, some australian, a little hokikien, some bahasa malasia, a little egyptian, and very little thai. I can order cold beer (chilled, not iced!) in over 50 languages. i can understand being insulted in over 62 languages if i work at it a little. love the moul forum without moderators.

  22. Ashtar says:

    Believe me, I don’t condone veralun’s heavy handed moderating, and have been moderated by him myself on a couple of occassions. But I know that some of the people posting on the forum asking for his removal would be just as heavy handed on their moderating techniques if they were in the same position. You know who you are. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and we all would probably fall under the same trap. So before we judge someone elses actions on the forum, perhaps we need to look in the mirror? :)

    • Tweek says:

      Not really, I’ve been modding on various sites over the years, there was only one time I was heavy handed, that was on DPWR which was the first site that wasn’t DJC that I modded on thus was still learning, and as a result I handed my position in.

      Can’t really say that I feel I’m heavy handed in moderation, in fact there is a great many things I’d have done on the MOUL forums to make that the opposite.

      Personally I don’t really feel it matters, Cyan won’t do what is needed to restore order to the forums.

      • Tweek says:

        Course I realize that it sounds like I’m contradicting myself there, but the DPWR thing was back in like 2000 or something, obviously in the 10 years since I don’t feel that I would be heavy handed.

  23. semplerette says:

    Cyan needs to step up to the plate so that the mods are never given the opportunity to have “absolute power” over others. Cyan owns the board and obviously they are not addressing their responsibilities to properly manage it.

    Why does Cyan keep insisting on taking actions that hurt their corporate image and/or upset their customer base? And then they wonder why they’re out of money all the time so that they “can’t afford” to properly manage the forums, etc? LOL!

  24. Joey Zoonishii says:

    The actions of the mods on the Uru forums have always baffled me.

    Although all that’s happened to me on the Uru forums is that my posts, which are directly related to Uru Live and posted in the Uru Live Discussion section, will get moved to “Off Topic” for some weird reason.

    …and if you question why this move was made, your post will be deleted and you’ll have a finger wagged at you…

    I dunno, I think the moderators on the forums are a bit too, err… over-zealous at times.

    My guess is that they may be operating under some weird idea that arguments in the forums will detract people from trying out Uru Live and continuing to use it. That viewpoint, if it has something to do with the mod’s behavior, is probably misguided, especially in this case.

  25. Gadren says:

    Stopped by the old forums to see if anything had happened since the start of MOULa, and I can’t say I’m surprised to see this sort of thing happening.

    Over the past several years the community has been defined by feuds, abuse of power (at the same time as overzealous arguing about power — as if there could be any real meaningful “power” over this scrap of a community of a scrap of a game), stifling of dissent, and above all else a complete lack of real understanding between fans and developers. It’s amazing to me how Cyan can recognize how “awesome their fans are,” and yet have so consistently failed when it came to really communicating with them. The Liaison nonsense showed clearly just what this community is like, and this recent bit on the MOUL forums shows that nothing has changed since I left. Disappointing.

    Enjoy your warring community as it eats itself.

  26. […] is upsetting for how little it actually says. Whilyam has said pretty much all there was to say in Ending the Nonsense; I also made a comment on that, part of which I shall quote: Finally and to get back on topic, […]

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